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Raid loot

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Éppen, Swen írta:

Nálunk is orrba-szájba esik a plate, amióta benn van ToT még nem láttam Jinrokhból a cloth gatyát, meg Megaerából a Breath of Hydrát.

Pedig nagyon régóta HC-n ütjük, egyszer szeretném lecserélni a Darkmoon trinketet végre.

Nálunk múlt héten esett először Wushoolay a bossból, csak hát eddigre mindenki ki bonus rollolta akinek kellett :)

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@Jackcarver
So do you play WoW to have fun or to get loot. 
You may as well work 24/7 doing a real job. Not only will you have fun, but you will get something valuable out of it.

I play wow to have fun. I am often at the forefront of not getting gear. You know what, I don't care because I get to play with my friends and we enjoy the time together.
The issue I have with this whole thing is that you are moving away from the point of a blizzlike server. These facts and issues you are bringing up have had no proof or evidence to back it up. 
If you have such an issue with loot, just have everything drop on the first kill, then you don't have a reason to complain (obviously I am joking, in case you didn't gather)

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7 minutes ago, Jackcarver said:

Blizzard did something that might just work for millions of population HOWEVER it's no where near sustainable on tauri atm. Since most 25 man guilds died out during 2014-2017 on cataclysm. BUT we still want to play and we WILL NOT ENDURE BLIZZARD BULLSHIT. That's clearly bad for the current population of tauri.

How did you even deduce that not raiding 25 is bad for the tauri population?Are you trolling me?

And maybe 25's died during cata cause you know,blizzard fucked up by not giving playerbase a good reason to raid 25 as there wasn't a difference in loot.

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9 minutes ago, Jackcarver said:

 

I think you guys think that 1 guild matters far more over the many others. Whoa such intellect. 25+ guilds >>>>>>>> 1 guild

Ye sorry we're just KP and you speak for every single Tauri player, sorry we'll just step aside

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1 perce, Idototems írta:

So do you play WoW to have fun or to get loot. 
You may as well work 24/7 doing a real job. Not only will you have fun, but you will get something valuable out of it.

I think i am not the only one who speak of this opinion but for many of us fun comes from the fact that we get loot. This is the only progression in the game that is visible. You can have invisible metrics like retail raiderio but that doesn't matter. I started playing in Wrath where you got your visual progression from doing raiding. Now tmogs took that away and we only left with getting gear as our source of fun.

You might like doing that but there are other guilds who have different measure for fun that not include yours.

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1 perce, Kromgar írta:

And maybe 25's died during cata cause you know,blizzard fucked up by not giving playerbase a good reason to raid 25 as there wasn't a difference in loot.

It died for many other reasons. Firelands raid tier became a joke when tauri had to took away the realmfirst achievement from the guild that did it first because it was too buggy to be considered as a kill by the masses.

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So you don't have fun playing your spec, you only have fun when your pixels in character sheet are most shiny? That's actually sad. Wish you luck finding fun in different parts of wow other than just gearing up.

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19 perce, Leahcim írta:

Wish you luck finding fun in different parts of wow other than just gearing up.

I used to have other things as fun. In wrath i wanted to complete everything all quests, all achievements, gather all the mounts and pets. But during cataclysm when i realized that no mater how fancy looking mount do i get i just used it for like 1 week then went back to my Invincible/Mirmiron Head mount. So i kinda stoped collection mounts. Pets also ended in the same way. When MoP came i had to abadon my cataclysm main because it became really bad in early MoP so i was like do i want to start over with completing everysingle quest in the game? The answer was a big NO after i tried doing my second Loremaster. Then during T14 after i got heroic Sha of Fear cutting edge achievement i felt like Blizzard stabbed us in the back that even tho i completed a hard achievement but i didn't get anything as a reward that is exclusive for that achievement. So i put down my old habit of my that everytime i login to the game i play until i get at least one achievement.

 

That's how it came to be.

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miért magyarázol nekik? mi közük van ahhoz, hogy te hogy érzed magad jól? a tény az tény: minden egyes guild kivéve a KP-t akarja a loot változásokat, innentől kezdve bármit is mondanak az kb irreleváns, ha a TT nem akarja, hogy csak az az 1 guild maradjon :)
he doesn't have to explain anything to you, he can have fun  gearing his characters, it's none of your business, there's a fact, every single guild except KP wants the loot reforms, from this point forward whatever you say is irrelevant unless TT wants only your guild left on the server :)
and btw, don't act like you know why hungarian guilds don't raid in 25m anymore, you have no idea, some of these guilds were on tauri for almost a decade, you've been here for what? 2 years max?

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The main issue is not the number of the loots but the variety. Its week #22 and there are still loots in the loot table i havent even seen yet (or only once in 22 weeks). Last few weeks i only saw 1 item that people actually needed in main gear the rest of the loot every single week is some useless plate tank/healer item that everyone has already. I dont really care if we get 2 or 3 loots from the bosses we still have at least half a year to raid tot and get the gear but i dont want to see the same items every week. Getting a decent loot rng would solve more problems than adding an extra loot to each boss. I dont really care that people can gear up more easily in 25M raid, it wont make the game less fun for me, but disenchanting the same loot every single lockout is really disappointing.

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16 minutes ago, panducimonk said:

why explain them to them? what are you doing to make yourself feel good? the fact is: every guild except the KP wants the loot changes, from now on whatever the say is irrelevant if the TT does not want it to be the only 1 guild it does not have to explain anything to you , he can have fun gearing his characters, it's none of your business, there's a fact, every single guild except KP wants the loot reforms, from this point forward whatever you say is irrelevant unless TT wants only your guild left on the server and btw , do not act like you know why hungarian guilds do not raid in 25m anymore, you have no idea, some of these guilds were on tauri for almost a decade, you've been here for what? 2 years max?:)
:)

Every guild except KP wants this, lol ok mate. I guess you also speak for everyone

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@Surfingbirdz To be fair I've been saying to remove plate int with crit to aithne in a manner of joke quite a lot but truth be told it's literally useless type of gear in mop. Holy Paladin just doesn't need crit in mop for crap with how intelect works. (being the only realistic amount of crit you need is 25% for your holy shock to have 50% crit chance which you currently achiev just by sheer amount of intellect you have and the crit buff)

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2 perce, Leahcim írta:

@Surfingbirdz To be fair I've been saying to remove plate int with crit to aithne in a manner of joke quite a lot but truth be told it's literally useless type of gear in mop. Holy Paladin just doesn't need crit in mop for crap with how intelect works. (being the only realistic amount of crit you need is 25% for your holy shock to have 50% crit chance which you currently achiev just by sheer amount of intellect you have and the crit buff)

 Fair point but removing it completely is still not the way to go. If you get the useless item like once every 8 weeks and then you get some other items on the other weeks is like "yeah its part of the game" but when you get the same item 15 times in 22 weeks and then get 1 of every single trinket in the game in 22 weeks is tilting af.

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And there is only one real fix for this giving 10 man a 3rd loot item. One other thing i could see that to make bad luck protected loot but that would decrease the time that you need for content full by half or more and that's not good. Having a 3rd loot would solve it without not that much of chance of breaking everything.

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7 perce, Session írta:

Every guild except KP wants this, lol ok mate. I guess you also speak for everyone

I'm not speaking for everyone but if everyone wants this change how do I tell it? :D how do I pass the information that 10m guilds want this change? enlighten me please
 

6 perce, Survikrowa írta:

pandacimonk. No. Not only KP. 3 items per boss is the worst idea ever. 

really? not only KP? worst idea? so you are fine with your normal trinkets on week ~20, okay, let's just implement the changes on tauri and you can suffer with your same items drops every week in 10 man on evermoon :)

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Just now, panducimonk said:

I'm not speaking for everyone but if everyone wants this change how do I tell it? :D how do I pass the information that 10m guilds want this change? enlighten me please
 

really? not only KP? worst idea? so you are fine with your normal trinkets on week ~20, okay, let's just implement the changes on tauri and you can suffer with your same items drops every week in 10 man on evermoon :)

So stop saying everyone wants this when you dont actually have a clue, thats a start.
ye I also want my heroic thunderforged renataki to drop, but it doesn't mean I want it at the expense of custom buffing loot.

My suggestion is; Make a funserver where the bosses drop their entire loot tables everytime so the babyragers can go there and quit the game after clearing the first time.

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@ panducimonk  Excatly why I dislike the hungarian community. You all just want something for yourself and hoping that everyone agrees on it too. If you want to see a change present some arguements that persuade as much as possible to your cause not just disregard other people if they do not agree like that.

Edited by Leahcim

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4 perce, Session írta:

So stop saying everyone wants this when you dont actually have a clue, thats a start.

sorry I didn't know Survikrowa is fine with farming the same content for months or years to get 1 item 68747470733a2f2f7374617469632d63646e2e6a, nonetheless we on tauri would like this change

 

7 perce, Leahcim írta:

@ panducimonk  Excatly why I dislike the hungarian community. You all just want something for yourself and hoping that everyone agrees on it too. If you want to see a change present some arguements that persuade as much as possible to your cause not just disregard other people if they do not agree like that.

so if you guys on evermoon don't want this change I am willing to make a compromise and ask for this change only on tauri 1.0

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Éppen, Leahcim írta:

@panducimonk No? Just accept our opinions and try to change our minds instead of take easy way out of being toxic and disrespecting. Everyone can do that but it's not a good sign for said person.

yeah cuz session was being respectful :D good joke mate, also I will not waste my time trying to change someone's mind who's already raiding in 25m and doesn't even care about the loot situation in 10m, you are just arguing for the sake of argument

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The only person who would talk about this with Chris is Aithne -> her guild doesn't want the change -> Chris will never read this topic.
It would create more work -> even more unlikely.
Just wait for the usual "it's not blizzlike and ppl don't want it" comment and calm down. :) 

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2 minutes ago, panducimonk said:

yeah cuz session was being respectful :D good joke mate, also I will not waste my time trying to change someone's mind who's already raiding in 25m and doesn't even care about the loot situation in 10m, you are just arguing for the sake of argument

I also raid in a 10m guild and yes I am perfectly fine with raiding with Blizzlike loot.

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2 perce, Leahcim írta:

@panducimonk No? Just accept our opinions and try to change our minds instead of take easy way out of being toxic and disrespecting. Everyone can do that but it's not a good sign for said person.

Still tauri has more guilds that want this change while evermoon has a few that don't. Now that shows that the change is neccessary. The question mostly revolves around that either all realms got it or not.

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Just now, Jackcarver said:

Still tauri has more guilds that want this change while evermoon has a few that don't. Now that shows that the change is neccessary. The question mostly revolves around that either all realms got it or not.

Ye and I'm sure a lot of ppl also want free credits and gold, last I checked the server was blizzlike. Maybe you shouldn't forget that fact, cause it is what keeps people playing.

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1 perce, Session írta:

Ye and I'm sure a lot of ppl also want free credits and gold, last I checked the server was blizzlike. Maybe you shouldn't forget that fact, cause it is what keeps people playing.

There are things that make the server better. I know you are not that big PvP player but with stuff that is not blizzlike the PvP experience improved by a milestone and people on the PvE section started to voice their opinion as PvP players did before . This will make players happy and will increase the amount of people who happipy raids once again. I really want to bring back my old friends who abadoned the game and this is something that they actually liked and said that they consider it.

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9 perce, Session írta:

 

I also raid in a 10m guild and yes I am perfectly fine with raiding with Blizzlike loot.

I wonder why hAjwATx.png
oh and btw, it's not blizzlike as it is now, that's the whole point :)

Edited by panducimonk

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Or maybe he means his other hunter aka Hornpub? and not his main. I also have an alt(Ellamayne) in other guild that tries to start raidding 10mans (it barely touched tot for now but w/e).

Edited by Leahcim

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Idézet

Excatly why I dislike the evermoon community. You all just want something for yourself and hoping that everyone agrees on it too. 

fixd

Edited by hehe ecksdee

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Guy from Muzykanci z Gruzji here. We've been raiding exclusively 10 man, and I have 2 characters (Termos and Lamcia), but they are both always used on the same ID. They are 544 and 541. In fact, most of our group is in the 542 ballpark and everyone seems to be happy about it.

How I see it, is that loot is an incentive to raid after you're done with the progression, so that you can progress the next tier in a smooth, fun manner, rather than bashing your head against the wall. So it's like a carrot on a stick that keeps you going every id. If you get geared too fast because of increased loot count, then you might as well just stop raiding. Fewer loot rewards the dedicated guilds which don't call quits in the middle of the tier.

Also, regarding the item per person argument on 10 vs 25. Please take into account that during progression, DPS and healer loot is considerably more valuable than tank loot, since the entry gear is enough to withstand any boss and tanks' attack power is mostly fuelled by vengeance, so the AP gains from main stat are negligible. Taking that into account, on 10 man there are 8 people who really need loot, on 25 man it's 23. So if you look at the item/person ratios now, it's 2/8 and 6/23. Those numbers are within ~0.01 of eachother. This is actually balanced in terms of loot count.

Edited by Termos

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let's decrease the number of loots per boss, then people won't be gearing too fast, surely there will be more people raiding 1.0 again, you don't understand the problem, it's not about how fast you gear your character, it's about how shitty is tauri's rng and certain items just don't drop or drop extremely rarely, I don't want to have to raid for a year just to get that one trinket I need, you argument about tanks % of total players in raid is interesting however it doesn't have a considerable effect on progression

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21 órája, panducimonk írta:

certain items just don't drop or drop extremely rarely

Tbh this is why I started messing around with shared loot, since... Those items just don't drop, period (no, a 1/20th of a percent chance miraculously happening for an alt doesn't really count). There are a couple other items (namely, tokens) which also don't really exist, there's 0 gold bonus rolls (as a related issue), and since everything uses the same loot references, why not just freaking implement everything at the same time so that nobody will ever need to rearrange loot refs ever again.

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2 perce, Aithne írta:

Tbh this is why I started messing around with shared loot, since... Those items just don't drop, period (no, a 1/20th of a percent chance miraculously happening for an alt doesn't really count). There are a couple other items which also don't really exist, there's 0 gold bonus rolls (as a related issue), and since everything uses the same loot references, why not just freaking implement everything at the same time so that nobody will ever need to rearrange loot refs ever again.

Hozzá ne merj nyúlni a shared boss loothoz olyan módon ahogy tervezed. Tönkre fogod tenni a 10-es raideket ha elveszed a sima lootunk és szemétre cseréled.

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4 órája, Termos írta:

Guy from Muzykanci z Gruzji here. We've been raiding exclusively 10 man, and I have 2 characters (Termos and Lamcia), but they are both always used on the same ID. They are 544 and 541. In fact, most of our group is in the 542 ballpark and everyone seems to be happy about it.

How I see it, is that loot is an incentive to raid after you're done with the progression, so that you can progress the next tier in a smooth, fun manner, rather than bashing your head against the wall. So it's like a carrot on a stick that keeps you going every id. If you get geared too fast because of increased loot count, then you might as well just stop raiding. Fewer loot rewards the dedicated guilds which don't call quits in the middle of the tier.

Also, regarding the item per person argument on 10 vs 25. Please take into account that during progression, DPS and healer loot is considerably more valuable than tank loot, since the entry gear is enough to withstand any boss and tanks' attack power is mostly fuelled by vengeance, so the AP gains from main stat are negligible. Taking that into account, on 10 man there are 8 people who really need loot, on 25 man it's 23. So if you look at the item/person ratios now, it's 2/8 and 6/23. Those numbers are within ~0.01 of eachother. This is actually balanced in terms of loot count.

Yet majority of the loot during a full clear is either tank loot or holypala loot, which is an rng issue and wouldn't be solved by adding an extra loot but its an issue that needs a solution and it is another topic where the community is arguing about one idea instead of focusing on the issue that needs to be solved

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1 perce, Surfingbirdz írta:

Yet majority of the loot during a full clear is either tank loot or holypala loot, which is an rng issue and wouldn't be solved by adding an extra loot but its an issue that needs a solution and it is another topic where the community is arguing about one idea instead of focusing on the issue that needs to be solved

RNG-én már nem igen lehet mit javítani Chris próbált már több fajta random szám generátort mindegyik ugyan ezt produkálta. Viszont az extra loot mindenféleképpen segíteni fog hiszen annak az esélye, hogy pl 3 db egyforma useless lootot adjon jóval kisebb mint, hogy 2 egyformát.

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Éppen, Jackcarver írta:

RNG-én már nem igen lehet mit javítani Chris próbált már több fajta random szám generátort mindegyik ugyan ezt produkálta. Viszont az extra loot mindenféleképpen segíteni fog hiszen annak az esélye, hogy pl 3 db egyforma useless lootot adjon jóval kisebb mint, hogy 2 egyformát.

Lehet hogy javítana rajta, de akkor is egy dolgon fog eldőlni az egész, hogy Chris, hogy ítéli meg a topicot, hogy a csodálatos külföldi barátaink véleményére alapoz vagy szét néz rendesen a topicban és rájön hogy több 10-es guild is jelezte támogatását.

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1 perce, Avaren írta:

Lehet hogy javítana rajta, de akkor is egy dolgon fog eldőlni az egész, hogy Chris, hogy ítéli meg a topicot, hogy a csodálatos külföldi barátaink véleményére alapoz vagy szét néz rendesen a topicban és rájön hogy több 10-es guild is jelezte támogatását.

Az azért elég szomorú lenne ha többet számít a véleménye 1 db guildnek mint másik  10-20 db guild-é.

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11 perce, Jackcarver írta:

RNG-én már nem igen lehet mit javítani Chris próbált már több fajta random szám generátort mindegyik ugyan ezt produkálta. Viszont az extra loot mindenféleképpen segíteni fog hiszen annak az esélye, hogy pl 3 db egyforma useless lootot adjon jóval kisebb mint, hogy 2 egyformát.

Érdekes, hogy olyan nem volt még, hogy több héten keresztül minden raiden volt legalább 1 thunderforged caster trinket, de nem thunderforgedben meg az összes kiesett kb. Bezzeg 1kezes tank fegyverrel meg a holypala itemekkel folyamatosan előfordul.

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Számolgattam valamennyit és arra jutottam, hogy a legjobb változtatás amivel meg lenne újra a balance a 25-ös és 10-es raidek közt, hogy mivel 25-ön minden boss 6 lootot dob HC-n így nálunk egy raiden az 1 főre jutó loot mennyiség 13 * 6 / 25 = 3.12 na most ha 10-esen minden boss 3-t dob akkor az nem igazán jó mert az 1 főre jutó loot 13 * 3 / 10 = 3.9 lenne. Viszont mint régebben is a 3-ik loot 10-esen a token bossokban volt ahol az egyik loot mindig token ha így számolunk akkor van ugye a 5 db tokenes meg 8 db nem tokenes boss vagyis ha csak a tokenes bossok dobnak 3-ik lootot akkor az 1 főre jutó loot ( 8 * 2 + 5 * 3 ) / 10 = 3.1-re jön ki.

A következő probléma a thunderforge droppok: mivel a loot droppok geometria eloszlást követnek és tudjuk, hogy 25-ön 25% az esélye, hogy egy item thunderforge ként droppol így 6 loot esetén mivel a geometriai eloszlás várható értéke E[x] = 1 / p ahol p az esély így várhatóan minden bossból esik 1 db thunderforged drop mert E[x]= 1 / 0.25 = 4, független loot események ha tekintünk akkor a várható értékek össze addodnak így jó közelítés az, hogy veszik az összes loot dropot és elosszuk a várható értékkel majd azt vesszük 1 főre. Vagyis jelen pillanatban ( 12 * 6 - (token droppok 5 * 3 )  ) / 4 + ( 6 ra den garantált)  / 25 = 0.81 az 1 főre jutó thunderforge itemek száma 25-ön. Ugyan ez 10-esen számolva a kiegyenlített loot dropokkal: ( 12 * 2 / 10 (1/p ami most 10 mert 10-esen 10% a drop thunderforgedre)  + 2 (ra den garantált)  ) / 10 = 0.44 ha 10-esen is hasonlóan 25% lenne a thunderforged drop chance akkor ( 12 * 2 / 4 + 2 ) / 10 = 0.8-ra jönne ki ez rendkívül egyenértékű és megoldana minden problémát.

Összegezve:

  • 10-es raideken a token bossok dobjanak 3-ik lootot
  • 10-es raideken is 25% legyen a thunderforge drop chance

@Chris ide néz megvan a megoldás

EN as requested:

I started to a count a bit more so here's my conclusion: to solve the balance issue between 25 man and 10 man raiding we need to only increase the drop amount just on the token bosses on 10 man this would bring the loot / person metric value to pretty much the same as on 25 man. ( 25 man calculation 13 * 6 / 25 = 3.12 , 10 man would be with the changes ( 8 * 2 + 5 * 3 ) / 10 = 3.1).

The other inbalance comes from the thunderforge drop system that plauges blizzard even to this day since this mechanic is the fundation of current titanforging in bfa/legion. The issue can be solved easily be adjusting the thunderforge item drop rates on 10 man to the same as 25 mans which is 25% this would bring the amount of expected thunderforged item / person ratio just bellow 25 mans one. I used geometric distribution model for this. (I can go into a bit more details if needed but i am kinda bad at explaining math to other people) So here's the quick math for 25 man you have 12 bosses that have a chance to drop thunderforged items this comes to 12 * 6 then we extract token drops which are 5 * 3 divide the amount by 4 which is the expected value of geometric distribution then add the remaining guaranteed tf item from ra-den and divide the whole thing by the amount of people ( ( 12 * 6 - 5 * 3 ) / 4 + 6 ) / 25 = 0.81 same calculation with the adjusted drop and the adjusted drop chance for 10 man ( 12 * 2 (every boss would drop 2 item without counting tokens which couldn't thunderforge) / 4 + 2 (from ra den) ) / 10 = 0.8

TLDR: needed changes to 10 man raids:

  • make it so token bosses drop a 3rd item
  • 10 man and 25 man should have the same thunderforging chance
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3 hours ago, Jackcarver said:

Számolgattam valamennyit és arra jutottam, hogy a legjobb változtatás amivel meg lenne újra a balance a 25-ös és 10-es raidek közt, hogy mivel 25-ön minden boss 6 lootot dob HC-n így nálunk egy raiden az 1 főre jutó loot mennyiség 13 * 6 / 25 = 3.12 na most ha 10-esen minden boss 3-t dob akkor az nem igazán jó mert az 1 főre jutó loot 13 * 3 / 10 = 3.9 lenne. Viszont mint régebben is a 3-ik loot 10-esen a token bossokban volt ahol az egyik loot mindig token ha így számolunk akkor van ugye a 5 db tokenes meg 8 db nem tokenes boss vagyis ha csak a tokenes bossok dobnak 3-ik lootot akkor az 1 főre jutó loot ( 8 * 2 + 5 * 3 ) / 10 = 3.1-re jön ki.

A következő probléma a thunderforge droppok: mivel a loot droppok geometria eloszlást követnek és tudjuk, hogy 25-ön 25% az esélye, hogy egy item thunderforge ként droppol így 6 loot esetén mivel a geometriai eloszlás várható értéke E[x] = 1 / p ahol p az esély így várhatóan minden bossból esik 1 db thunderforged drop mert E[x]= 1 / 0.25 = 4, független loot események ha tekintünk akkor a várható értékek össze addodnak így jó közelítés az, hogy veszik az összes loot dropot és elosszuk a várható értékkel majd azt vesszük 1 főre. Vagyis jelen pillanatban ( 12 * 6 - (token droppok 5 * 3 )  ) / 4 + ( 6 ra den garantált)  / 25 = 0.81 az 1 főre jutó thunderforge itemek száma 25-ön. Ugyan ez 10-esen számolva a kiegyenlített loot dropokkal: ( 12 * 2 / 10 (1/p ami most 10 mert 10-esen 10% a drop thunderforgedre)  + 2 (ra den garantált)  ) / 10 = 0.44 ha 10-esen is hasonlóan 25% lenne a thunderforged drop chance akkor ( 12 * 2 / 4 + 2 ) / 10 = 0.8-ra jönne ki ez rendkívül egyenértékű és megoldana minden problémát.

Összegezve:

  • 10-es raideken a token bossok dobjanak 3-ik lootot
  • 10-es raideken is 25% legyen a thunderforge drop chance

@Chris ide néz megvan a megoldás

EN as requested:

I started to a count a bit more so here's my conclusion: to solve the balance issue between 25 man and 10 man raiding we need to only increase the drop amount just on the token bosses on 10 man this would bring the loot / person metric value to pretty much the same as on 25 man. ( 25 man calculation 13 * 6 / 25 = 3.12 , 10 man would be with the changes ( 8 * 2 + 5 * 3 ) / 10 = 3.1).

The other inbalance comes from the thunderforge drop system that plauges blizzard even to this day since this mechanic is the fundation of current titanforging in bfa/legion. The issue can be solved easily be adjusting the thunderforge item drop rates on 10 man to the same as 25 mans which is 25% this would bring the amount of expected thunderforged item / person ratio just bellow 25 mans one. I used geometric distribution model for this. (I can go into a bit more details if needed but i am kinda bad at explaining math to other people) So here's the quick math for 25 man you have 12 bosses that have a chance to drop thunderforged items this comes to 12 * 6 then we extract token drops which are 5 * 3 divide the amount by 4 which is the expected value of geometric distribution then add the remaining guaranteed tf item from ra-den and divide the whole thing by the amount of people ( ( 12 * 6 - 5 * 3 ) / 4 + 6 ) / 25 = 0.81 same calculation with the adjusted drop and the adjusted drop chance for 10 man ( 12 * 2 (every boss would drop 2 item without counting tokens which couldn't thunderforge) / 4 + 2 (from ra den) ) / 10 = 0.8

TLDR: needed changes to 10 man raids:

  • make it so token bosses drop a 3rd item
  • 10 man and 25 man should have the same thunderforging chance

Em, no. I thought that the item/person metric was the peak of naivety, but using it this way is considerably worse. Token bosses already have smaller loot tables than non-token bosses. Increasing loot count on them will make you overfed with the items THEY drop and in result just disenchanting all their loot weeks before getting the items you need from the other bosses.

Also no shit you're bad at explaining maths if you overcomplicate stuff so much. No need to talk about any geometric distribution and stuff. It's just the linearity of expectations over indicator variables, where each indicator tells whether a certain piece of loot thunderforged. Also it's intuitively trivial that equalizing the thunderforging chances makes the expected number of thunderforges equal, under the assumption that the amazing "loot per person" value is also equal.

Not to mention that there's no need to touch the thunderfoging chances. 10 man IS easier (unless you're running a retarded comp or your tanks are retarded and do 0 DPS), so giving 25 man a chance to get a few extra ilvls is fair and makes those 2 modes feel different.

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10 perce, Termos írta:

10 man IS easier (unless you're running a retarded comp or your tanks are retarded and do 0 DPS), so giving 25 man a chance to get a few extra ilvls is fair and makes those 2 modes feel different.

I don't think 10 man is that easy as you think it. You have to run unoptimised comps most of the time. Also the comps usually doesn't cover the whole spectrum of possible drops. And the most important that the server is 10 man orientated so we should have similar drops because not everyone is a special snowflake who can afford 25 man raiding. Just getting extra ilvls for 25 man feels like a cheating over 10 man guild when the new tier comes and people who raid in 25 man quickly switch to 10 man because they took out the elite core of the 25 man team to steamroll the realmfirst while ruining the experience for the majority is not all right. Also no one stops you from still raid in 25 man if you like it do it but most hungarians are out of that stuff because many reasons that happened over the course of the last 8 years on tauri. My point is that still 1 guild shouldn't matter more then many others who the change.

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